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	<title>Comments on: Capitalist Climate Cola (with a side of global warming hockey stick info)</title>
	<link>http://www.21st-century-citizen.com/2007/07/24/climate-hockey-stick-graph/</link>
	<description>Exploring the New Values of the 21st Century Citizen</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:56:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Paris Hilton Sex Tape Video 2 - Paris Hilton Exposed *HOT*</title>
		<link>http://www.21st-century-citizen.com/2007/07/24/climate-hockey-stick-graph/#comment-6489</link>
		<author>Paris Hilton Sex Tape Video 2 - Paris Hilton Exposed *HOT*</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:48:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.21st-century-citizen.com/2007/07/24/climate-hockey-stick-graph/#comment-6489</guid>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>paris hilton celebrity sex tape videos nude&#8230;</strong></p>
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		<title>By: jhimm</title>
		<link>http://www.21st-century-citizen.com/2007/07/24/climate-hockey-stick-graph/#comment-443</link>
		<author>jhimm</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2007 23:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.21st-century-citizen.com/2007/07/24/climate-hockey-stick-graph/#comment-443</guid>
		<description>i think this is a classic case
of advocates for change
allowing themselves to get bogged in the details
and losing sight of what's important.

advocates of radical change see "the hockey stick"
and so see evidence that is 
"among the most compeling arguments in support of global warming".

some of us see problematic use of statistical analysis
but remain advocates for change
and so are stuck in the middle.

others have vested interests in avoiding change
and use these same reservations about statistical analysis
to insist that this "evidence" is "fake" or "misleading".

advocates for change should not rise to this bait.
there is no reason to rise to this bait.
if those with conflicted interests
would rather side with oil profits
than the well being of their own children and grand children,
then let them do that.

if radical climate change on that scale is real,
other evidence will become available. 

why allow ourselves to get bogged down in a pointless debate
about a single graph
with people who are never going to change their minds
not because they are too stupid to see the reality
but because the opinion is bought and paid for?

the problem is,
to "the masses" both sides are bought and paid for.
big oil on the one side
"radical environmentalism" on the other.
(aka Luddites who want us to live in caves and eat moss.)

you will not sway the masses by debating the details 
wrapped around a single piece of evidence.

personally i think all of global warming is a red herring.
who cares if global warming is real or not?
shouldn't we want to conserve and recycle and reuse
whether a fiery hell on earth awaits us or not?
shouldn't we want to do these things
simply because it is -better- to do them then not to?

it sounds way too much like those christians
who get saved not because they want to be better people
but because they want to avoid an eternity in Hell.

i remember environmentalism from the 70's and 80's.
it wasn't about global warming.
it wasn't about debatable topics and statistics.
it was about the fact that pollution is ugly 
and it makes people ill.
we've lost a lot of ground with global warming
with the general public
because global warming involves geology
and geology is the science of millenia
and most people are not willing to think in millenia.
it's just too big.

and that's the problem with this graph.
it is a graph of millenia,
and there simply isn't reliable data that old to back it up
and there simply isn't the patience and insight
on the part of most people to think on that scale.


let's go back to the crying native american
who looks out at a spoiled wilderness 
and convince people to stop pollution
(without all the complicit racism of course).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think this is a classic case<br />
of advocates for change<br />
allowing themselves to get bogged in the details<br />
and losing sight of what&#8217;s important.</p>
<p>advocates of radical change see &#8220;the hockey stick&#8221;<br />
and so see evidence that is<br />
&#8220;among the most compeling arguments in support of global warming&#8221;.</p>
<p>some of us see problematic use of statistical analysis<br />
but remain advocates for change<br />
and so are stuck in the middle.</p>
<p>others have vested interests in avoiding change<br />
and use these same reservations about statistical analysis<br />
to insist that this &#8220;evidence&#8221; is &#8220;fake&#8221; or &#8220;misleading&#8221;.</p>
<p>advocates for change should not rise to this bait.<br />
there is no reason to rise to this bait.<br />
if those with conflicted interests<br />
would rather side with oil profits<br />
than the well being of their own children and grand children,<br />
then let them do that.</p>
<p>if radical climate change on that scale is real,<br />
other evidence will become available. </p>
<p>why allow ourselves to get bogged down in a pointless debate<br />
about a single graph<br />
with people who are never going to change their minds<br />
not because they are too stupid to see the reality<br />
but because the opinion is bought and paid for?</p>
<p>the problem is,<br />
to &#8220;the masses&#8221; both sides are bought and paid for.<br />
big oil on the one side<br />
&#8220;radical environmentalism&#8221; on the other.<br />
(aka Luddites who want us to live in caves and eat moss.)</p>
<p>you will not sway the masses by debating the details<br />
wrapped around a single piece of evidence.</p>
<p>personally i think all of global warming is a red herring.<br />
who cares if global warming is real or not?<br />
shouldn&#8217;t we want to conserve and recycle and reuse<br />
whether a fiery hell on earth awaits us or not?<br />
shouldn&#8217;t we want to do these things<br />
simply because it is -better- to do them then not to?</p>
<p>it sounds way too much like those christians<br />
who get saved not because they want to be better people<br />
but because they want to avoid an eternity in Hell.</p>
<p>i remember environmentalism from the 70&#8217;s and 80&#8217;s.<br />
it wasn&#8217;t about global warming.<br />
it wasn&#8217;t about debatable topics and statistics.<br />
it was about the fact that pollution is ugly<br />
and it makes people ill.<br />
we&#8217;ve lost a lot of ground with global warming<br />
with the general public<br />
because global warming involves geology<br />
and geology is the science of millenia<br />
and most people are not willing to think in millenia.<br />
it&#8217;s just too big.</p>
<p>and that&#8217;s the problem with this graph.<br />
it is a graph of millenia,<br />
and there simply isn&#8217;t reliable data that old to back it up<br />
and there simply isn&#8217;t the patience and insight<br />
on the part of most people to think on that scale.</p>
<p>let&#8217;s go back to the crying native american<br />
who looks out at a spoiled wilderness<br />
and convince people to stop pollution<br />
(without all the complicit racism of course).</p>
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		<title>By: 8 Great Global Warming Podcast Episodes / Series</title>
		<link>http://www.21st-century-citizen.com/2007/07/24/climate-hockey-stick-graph/#comment-307</link>
		<author>8 Great Global Warming Podcast Episodes / Series</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2007 17:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.21st-century-citizen.com/2007/07/24/climate-hockey-stick-graph/#comment-307</guid>
		<description>[...] is a podcast from Earth &#38; Sky that is an interview with Michael Mann, one of the originators of the &#8216;Hockey Stick Graph&#8217; we discussed a few days ago. This podcast is part of the A Clear Voice For Science [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] is a podcast from Earth &amp; Sky that is an interview with Michael Mann, one of the originators of the &#8216;Hockey Stick Graph&#8217; we discussed a few days ago. This podcast is part of the A Clear Voice For Science [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.21st-century-citizen.com/2007/07/24/climate-hockey-stick-graph/#comment-291</link>
		<author>admin</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:01:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.21st-century-citizen.com/2007/07/24/climate-hockey-stick-graph/#comment-291</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Interesting comment -- so, you are familiar with &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrik_Svensmark" rel="nofollow"&gt;Henrik Svensmark's work in this area&lt;/a&gt;. Thanks for the comment.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I'm actually very open to Dr. Svenmark's ideas -- however, I'm not ready to accept that man is having *no* impact and cosmic rays are everything.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;From Dr. Svenmark's Wikipedia entry: "In June 2007, the ideas of Svensmark and Friis-Christensen were challenged in a paper written by Mike Lockwood of the UK's Rutherford Appleton Laboratory and Claus Froehlich of the World Radiation Center in Switzerland which was published in the Proceedings of the Royal Society in June/July 2007.[2] Their study concluded that the link between increased levels of carbon in the atmosphere and global warming was substantially more significant than that between cosmic rays and global warming."&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Even Dr. Svenmark has stated he belives there is a link between CO2 and global warming (see my &lt;aa href="http://www.21st-century-citizen.com/2007/07/21/portrait-of-an-environmental-hack-job/"&gt;earlier post here&lt;/a&gt;.)&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But thanks for reading and thanks for commenting. I appreciate your contributions and hope you stop by again. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Kevin&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;ps. I hope the weather in Hawaii is nice this time of year...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting comment &#8212; so, you are familiar with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrik_Svensmark" rel="nofollow">Henrik Svensmark&#8217;s work in this area</a>. Thanks for the comment.</p>
</p>
<p>I&#8217;m actually very open to Dr. Svenmark&#8217;s ideas &#8212; however, I&#8217;m not ready to accept that man is having *no* impact and cosmic rays are everything.</p>
</p>
<p>From Dr. Svenmark&#8217;s Wikipedia entry: &#8220;In June 2007, the ideas of Svensmark and Friis-Christensen were challenged in a paper written by Mike Lockwood of the UK&#8217;s Rutherford Appleton Laboratory and Claus Froehlich of the World Radiation Center in Switzerland which was published in the Proceedings of the Royal Society in June/July 2007.[2] Their study concluded that the link between increased levels of carbon in the atmosphere and global warming was substantially more significant than that between cosmic rays and global warming.&#8221;</p>
</p>
<p>Even Dr. Svenmark has stated he belives there is a link between CO2 and global warming (see my <aa href="http://www.21st-century-citizen.com/2007/07/21/portrait-of-an-environmental-hack-job/">earlier post here.)</aa></p>
</p>
<p>But thanks for reading and thanks for commenting. I appreciate your contributions and hope you stop by again. </p>
</p>
<p>Kevin</p>
</p>
<p>ps. I hope the weather in Hawaii is nice this time of year&#8230;</p></p>
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		<title>By: phil</title>
		<link>http://www.21st-century-citizen.com/2007/07/24/climate-hockey-stick-graph/#comment-290</link>
		<author>phil</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 18:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.21st-century-citizen.com/2007/07/24/climate-hockey-stick-graph/#comment-290</guid>
		<description>In order for the hockey-stick to be correct, you have to ignore the Medieval Warming Period. Try looking into sun/cosmic ray cycles. Those seem to have an effect on cloud formation, which appears nowhere in climate research.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In order for the hockey-stick to be correct, you have to ignore the Medieval Warming Period. Try looking into sun/cosmic ray cycles. Those seem to have an effect on cloud formation, which appears nowhere in climate research.</p>
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